s/c or turbo

[navylife59]

Well, to really put your knickers in a bunch, I am working on a project with a TRD S/C that will outperform most turbos with no lag and no parasitic power loss. Just finishing up the research and about to start work on the prototype. Should be interesting.

[ForBiddeN]

hey navy do thoes new crank pullys rely add 10hp thats nuts for just a pully! and what are you doing lol?

[navylife59]

They don't make BHP, they just recover wasted energy. This is done by simple physics of reducing the rotational mass on the crankshaft. Reduce the mass (weight) and you recover the energy utilized to move it and a given RPM on the crank. Less energy used, the more perceived BHP. Note: This is not WHP. Typical gains in WHP are probably 1-3WHP.
What you can tell is the engine RPM's rising slightly faster. Faster revs should help you build max torque faster. How this affects 0-60, 60 foot times, reaction times, and overall ET's; I can only speculate.

The OEM crank pulley is also a mechanical harmonic balancer. Basically, it is a 2 piece, weighted pulley joined together by a rubber section. It is a balanced assembly on the crankshaft with a balanced flywheel at the other end. In typical domestic motors, these along with the cranks counter-balance weights, keeps things balanced. The rubber section acts to absorb any minor balancing inefficiencies aka harmonics.

Now, we all know that Toyota is over-built, rock solid motors. The OEM pulley/harmonic balancer is just an added extra precaution for engine balance and longevity. I say this for a few basic reasons. First, the crank is forged steel. Second, the entire rotating assembly is full balanced. Third, the counter-balance shafts are forged steel and direct gear-driven by the crank, no chain. Also, as with most aluminum blocks, the crank assembly is housed in a lower girdle.

[navylife59]

They don't make BHP, they just recover wasted energy. This is done by simple physics of reducing the rotational mass on the crankshaft. Reduce the mass (weight) and you recover the energy utilized to move it and a given RPM on the crank. Less energy used, the more perceived BHP. Note: This is not WHP. Typical gains in WHP are probably 1-3WHP.
What you can tell is the engine RPM's rising slightly faster. Faster revs should help you build max torque faster. How this affects 0-60, 60 foot times, reaction times, and overall ET's; I can only speculate.

The OEM crank pulley is also a mechanical harmonic balancer. Basically, it is a 2 piece, weighted pulley joined together by a rubber section. It is a balanced assembly on the crankshaft with a balanced flywheel at the other end. In typical domestic motors, these along with the cranks counter-balance weights, keeps things balanced. The rubber section acts to absorb any minor balancing inefficiencies aka harmonics.

Now, we all know that Toyota is over-built, rock solid motors. The OEM pulley/harmonic balancer is just an added extra precaution for engine balance and longevity. I say this for a few basic reasons. First, the crank is forged steel. Second, the entire rotating assembly is full balanced. Third, the counter-balance shafts are forged steel and direct gear-driven by the crank, no chain. Also, as with most aluminum blocks, the crank assembly is housed in a lower girdle.

[TeknoMaeg]

Originally Posted by ForBiddeN

"A S/C will drain the engine of power due to using the crank's rotational mass to turn the turbine." you contradict your self... you say it drains the power of your car but there for you also say its instant power if its instant power how would it drain your car?

Every single S/C application will drain potential power due to it leaching off the engine to rotate it. This test has been done many times and you yourself can do it as well.

Take a car... do a baseline run on a dyno to see what it puts down, STOCK. Then bolt on the supercharger but DO NOT connect the intake piping, so NONE of the compessed air is forced into the manifold.

Do another pull and you will see the power drop. Some times by as much as 10-20%. With a 160HP (claimed) engine... this is ALOT.

Now do the same thing with a turbo setup. You will notice a much smaller reduction in power loss due to the increased backpressure from the turbine side of the turbo, and if the manifold is designed correctly and you are using a high quality, easily spooled turbo. You will lose almost NO power with the turbo simply bolted up.

Not to mention if you KNOW WHAT THE HELL YOUR DOING. and you have the cash to spend. You can buy a high quality turbo that can spool instantly.

yes its pully driven but how would that effect the power of your car? so how would a turbo be any better there is turbo lag... aka spool time. so what would be better? having "instant" power but because its pully driven you lose power....? or have a turbo that u have to wait for the spool time? you also say u can get a turbo kit cheep.yeah you can but if you wanna blow your motor up go a head. you can find a supercharger kit for the same price of a nice turbo kit. with the supercharger your more safe.

See the article below...

the power that comes out of the turbo sometimes unpredictible because of the spool time with the supercharger your evening the power as your go threw your rpms becase it is instant as for the turbo because of the spool time when it hits that rpm its like an instant hp gain its like hitting the nos.

I would like to know where you get your information. Yes with a crappy wastegate/boost controller you can spike your boost but this usually comes from some one running a much larger turbo than they need for their application. Also I wouldn't recommend a novice taking on a "junkyard turbo" project. Those are left for seasoned mechanics who have built, installed and tuned high horsepower turbo systems on cars far superior to that of the 2AZ-FE. By no means am I knocking the engine. It has excellent potential but it doesn't hold a candle to a stock LSx as far as power potential goes.

just rember you started this whole ******* attitude from me about of your non ability to read on the outer post in my book your considerd an ass whole and still 1 unless u show me outerwise. then my attitude will change toward you.

To be honest i don't care what your attitude is. You won't be the first to hate me, but like most you will come to realize I only wish to inform and educate people rather than spewing false information that can cost them time and money. Not to mention allowing fads, trends and ignorance to effect thier choices in the performance aspect of the automotive industry. I have been working on cars since I was 9 years old. I don't claim to know everything but if I do know something I will share it.

As I have always said, if you can prove me wrong on something, BRING IT. I love learning new facts and truths, but if you can't back your information up with truthful knowledge... keep you fingers off the keyboard because I will not hesitate to make you look like an ass. It's just my way... I hate stupidity and arrogance. They don't mix well...

Now if you are willing to learn I will help you out but if you are dead set on giving these people false information then be prepared to deal with me bashing you every time you make a mistake.

Originally Posted by navylife59

They don't make BHP, they just recover wasted energy. This is done by simple physics of reducing the rotational mass on the crankshaft. Reduce the mass (weight) and you recover the energy utilized to move it and a given RPM on the crank. Less energy used, the more perceived BHP. Note: This is not WHP. Typical gains in WHP are probably 1-3WHP.
What you can tell is the engine RPM's rising slightly faster. Faster revs should help you build max torque faster. How this affects 0-60, 60 foot times, reaction times, and overall ET's; I can only speculate.

The OEM crank pulley is also a mechanical harmonic balancer. Basically, it is a 2 piece, weighted pulley joined together by a rubber section. It is a balanced assembly on the crankshaft with a balanced flywheel at the other end. In typical domestic motors, these along with the cranks counter-balance weights, keeps things balanced. The rubber section acts to absorb any minor balancing inefficiencies aka harmonics.

Now, we all know that Toyota is over-built, rock solid motors. The OEM pulley/harmonic balancer is just an added extra precaution for engine balance and longevity. I say this for a few basic reasons. First, the crank is forged steel. Second, the entire rotating assembly is full balanced. Third, the counter-balance shafts are forged steel and direct gear-driven by the crank, no chain. Also, as with most aluminum blocks, the crank assembly is housed in a lower girdle.

I would like to see this. Many TOP engineering firms have worked for years to make a S/C system that is non-parasitic... If you can do it... patent it and I will find people to fund you.

[TeknoMaeg]

Head to Head Comparison

Now it's time to evaluate the turbocharger versus the supercharger according to several important factors.

Cost
The cost of supercharger and a turbocharger systems for the same engine are approximately the same, so cost is generally not a factor.

Lag
This is perhaps the biggest advantage that the supercharger enjoys over the tubo. Because a turbocharger is driven by exhaust gasses, the turbocharger's turbine must first spool up before it even begins to turn the compressor's impeller. This results in lag time which is the time needed for the turbine to reach its full throttle from an intermediate rotational speed state. During this lag time, the turbocharger is creating little to no boost, which means little to no power gains during this time. Smaller turbos spool up quicker, which eliminates some of this lag. Turbochargers thus utilize a wastegate, which allows the use of a smaller turbocharger to reduce lag while preventing it from spinning too quickly at high engine speeds. The wastegate is a valve that allows the exhaust to bypass the turbine blades. The wastegate senses boost pressure, and if it gets too high, it could be an indicator that the turbine is spinning too quickly, so the wastegate bypasses some of the exhaust around the turbine blades, allowing the blades to slow down..
A Supercharger, on the other hand, is connected directly to the crank, so there is no "lag". Superchargers are able to produce boost at a very low rpm, especially screw-type and roots type blowers.

Efficiency
This is the turbo's biggest advantage. The turbocharger is generally more economical to operate as it as it is driven primarily by potential energy in the exhaust gasses that would otherwise be lost out the exhaust, whereas a supercharger draws power from the crank, which can be used to turn the wheels. The turbocharger's impeller is also powered only under boost conditions, so there is less parasitic drag while the impeller is not spinning. The turbocharger, however, is not free of inefficiency as it does create additional exhaust backpressure and exhaust flow interruption.

Heat
Because the turbocharger is mounted to the exhaust manifold (which is very hot), turbocharger boost is subject to additional heating via the turbo's hot casing. Because hot air expands (the opposite goal of a turbo or supercharger), an intercooler becomes necessary on almost all turbocharged applications to cool the air charge before it is released into the engine. This increases the complexity of the installation. A centrifugal supercharger on the other hand creates a cooler air discharge, so an intercooler is often not necessary at boost levels below 10psi. That said, some superchargers (especially roots-type superchargers) create hotter discharge temperatures, which also make an intecooler necessary even on fairly low-boost applications.

Surge
Because a turbocharger first spools up before the boost is delivered to the engine, there is a surge of power that is delivered immediately when the wastegate opens (around 3000 rpm). This surge can be damaging to the engine and drivetrain, and can make the vehicle difficult to drive or lose traction.

Back Pressure
Because the supercharger eliminates the need to deal with the exhaust gas interruption created by inserting a turbocharger turbine into the exhaust flow, the supercharger creates no additional exhaust backpressure. The amount of power that is lost by a turbo's turbine reduces it's overall efficiency.

Noise
The turbocharger is generally quiter than the supercharger. Because the turbo's turbine is in the exhaust, the turbo can substantially reduce exhaust noise, making the engine run quieter. Some centrifugal superchargers are known to be noisy and whistley which, annoys some drivers (we, however, love it!)

Reliability
In general, superchargers enjoy a substantial reliability advantage over the turbocharger. When a a turbo is shut off (i.e. when the engine is turned off), residual oil inside the turbo's bearings can be baked by stored engine heat. This, combined with the turbo's extremely high rpms (up to 150,000rpm) can cause problems with the turbo's internal bearings and can shorten the life of the turbocharger. In addition, many turbos require aftermarket exhaust manifolds, which are often far less reliable than stock manifolds.

Ease of Installation
Superchargers are substantially easier to install than a turbos because they have far fewer components and simpler devices. Turbos are complex and require manifold and exhaust modifications, intercoolers, extra oil lines, etc. - most of which is not needed with most superchargers. A novice home mechanic can easily install most supercharger systems, while a turbo installation should be left to a turbo expert.

Maximum Power Output
Turbos are known for their unique ability to spin to incredibly high rpms and make outrages peak boost figures (25psi+). While operating a turbocharger at very high levels of boost requires major modifications to the rest of the engine, the turbo is capable of producing more peak power than superchargers.

Tunability
Turbochargers, because they are so complex and rely on exhaust pressure, are notoriously difficult to tune. Superchargers, on the other hand, require few fuel and ignition upgrades and normally require little or no engine tuning.

Conclusion
While the supercharger is generally considered to be a better method of forced induction for most street and race vehicles, the turbo will always have its place in a more specialized market. Superchargers generally provide a much broader powerband that most drivers are looking for with no "turbo lag". In addition, they are much easier to install and tune, making them more practical for a home or novice mechanic.

It's a good read...

[ForBiddeN]

Thanks for the info TeknoMaeg. but its point less to have a back and fourth fight between what is better. people have diffrent oppions and its just contunus fight i use to be about only turbos but with the info navy has provided with us i had a change in mind if any body can prove us wrong its navy lol. i dont know every thing but i like to voice with what knowdlege i have and i could be wrong or could be right im just stateing my oppion.

[TeknoMaeg]

Originally Posted by ForBiddeN

Thanks for the info TeknoMaeg. but its point less to have a back and fourth fight between what is better. people have diffrent oppions and its just contunus fight i use to be about only turbos but with the info navy has provided with us i had a change in mind if any body can prove us wrong its navy lol. i dont know every thing but i like to voice with what knowdlege i have and i could be wrong or could be right im just stateing my oppion.

All in all it's ALWAYS personal choice. I will never use a S/C... with the exception of a 10:71 roots on top of a MAD big block Chevy. But that's my old school roots.

Mathematically... turbo's always win... but it's all in WHERE you want the power and HOW MUCH of it you want.

[ForBiddeN]

Originally Posted by TeknoMaeg

All in all it's ALWAYS personal choice. I will never use a S/C... with the exception of a 10:71 roots on top of a MAD big block Chevy. But that's my old school roots.

Mathematically... turbo's always win... but it's all in WHERE you want the power and HOW MUCH of it you want.

true that ture that. why did u go from v8's to 4bangers? or domestic to and import?

[navylife59]

Now the great Chevy, Ford, Mopar debate begins. Give me a 429 shotgun motor with a monster roots blower and dual dominator carbs.

TeknoMaeg is very astute in the ways of the force, hmm I mean, getting pressurized. I agree with your quote but for one small exception; cost. Yes, a bland Stage 0 turbo w/ no emanage and FMIC is roughly the cost of a S/C setup. The trick is when one becomes a boost head. Now you have to have emanage, turbo controller, better wastegate/BOV, turbo timer, EGT gauge, Boost gauge, FMIC, and some dyno time. That is alot of cash and alot of install time. With a torque wrench, new pulley and belt I can safely up the boost on my S/C for about $100-150. It may not be spitting out 300WHP, but it sure won't be a wimp either. Still, it is all up to personal preference when it comes to the 2AZ-FE.


As far as a non-parasitic S/C, well, people have been looking in the wrong direction. 12VDC is not the way to go. When Fuel cells hit the market, you will see 48 volt systems as standard. Ohm's Law works out a 1200W motor at 12VDC is 100A. At 24VDC that same 1200W is 50A. At 48VDC it is now only 25A. As you can see, that load is less than the 30A circuit used by most A/C blowers on vehicles.

Another problem is the motors used. A starter motor is a high amperage device that is meant to create large amounts of torque for short periods. The typical circuits are load calibrated to 100-120A. What is needed is the other end of the spectrum; a high RPM, low torque DC motor. The motor for the job is the DC Servo motor. These motors spin at high rates, upwards to 16K-20K RPMS, and coupled to a gear reduction to provide precise movements (.001" or better) on machinery. In the manufacturing industry, these servos work non-stop for 100,000+ hours w/o servicing or failure. With the right gear reduction and computer controller, the prospects are amazing.

Now, where's my money?!

[TeknoMaeg]

Originally Posted by ForBiddeN

true that ture that. why did u go from v8's to 4bangers? or domestic to and import?

I never left domestics... I simply broadened my horizons to include imports. No reason to limit myself to the thought that V8=GOD... Cause to be honest... a stock 2liter engine pushing 400WHP is more impressive than a 500HP 7liter.

Originally Posted by navylife59

Now the great Chevy, Ford, Mopar debate begins. Give me a 429 shotgun motor with a monster roots blower and dual dominator carbs.

My favorite engine is the 426 out of the cuda's... but as far as engines I have worked on... an LS7(z06 corvette) TT setup is by far the most extreme.

TeknoMaeg is very astute in the ways of the force, hmm I mean, getting pressurized. I agree with your quote but for one small exception; cost. Yes, a bland Stage 0 turbo w/ no emanage and FMIC is roughly the cost of a S/C setup. The trick is when one becomes a boost head. Now you have to have emanage, turbo controller, better wastegate/BOV, turbo timer, EGT gauge, Boost gauge, FMIC, and some dyno time. That is alot of cash and alot of install time. With a torque wrench, new pulley and belt I can safely up the boost on my S/C for about $100-150. It may not be spitting out 300WHP, but it sure won't be a wimp either. Still, it is all up to personal preference when it comes to the 2AZ-FE.

True... but then again it's all about potential and driving style. IF I want my 25-30MPG but still be able to grab the boost and get 300-400HP... then turbo is the only way to go.

As far as a non-parasitic S/C, well, people have been looking in the wrong direction. 12VDC is not the way to go. When Fuel cells hit the market, you will see 48 volt systems as standard. Ohm's Law works out a 1200W motor at 12VDC is 100A. At 24VDC that same 1200W is 50A. At 48VDC it is now only 25A. As you can see, that load is less than the 30A circuit used by most A/C blowers on vehicles.

So you're suggesting throwing an addition motor on the engine? or simply transitioning the starter motor to a different design and allowing it to drive the engine to minimize loss?

Now, where's my money?!

Concepts never get funded... only working products.

[navylife59]

Hey, $5 out to hold me over till Tuesday!

The starter motor is completely the wrong solution as a blower drive unit. My point was that with a 48VDC for power, a DC Servo motor could effectively operate a centifugal blower all day long, every day of the week. That is alot more than a couple of passes. Another note to point out is that you won't need a bank of batteries either.

Until the 48VDC fuel cells come in cars, power will have to be made one of two ways or a combination thereof. First would be an alternator with 48VDC windings. The second would be a 12/24VDC to 48VDC step-up transformer. The question that needs to be answered is how much of a load is going to be on the 12VDC alternator running a step-up power supply as opposed to a 48VDC alternator running a direct connection? In turn, how much more drag will this put on the engine? I believe it is safe to say well below that of a belt driven S/C.

[navylife59]

OK.... Here is the prototype. Now, where's the money????



.......just kidding.

[TeknoMaeg]

Originally Posted by navylife59